Talk:Vote to rework membership points

Brain dump

• skip the discount - that seems like a nightmare to manage
  • removing, it has not been successfully in the past --Hef (talk) 11:58, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• qualify "currently $30" with a date
  • I am going to remove it entirely --Hef (talk) 11:58, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• onus of claiming points MUST be on member - contact board by current method (currently info@) within 1 month of event
  • Noteing onus on member --Hef (talk)
  • ignoring 1 month, as the practice is up to the BoD --Hef (talk) 12:01, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• expiry is hard to track --Dbever (talk) 02:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
• Please get rid of the word may in the phrase "Members may be awarded Membership Points". 'May' just sounds like legalese and everyone argues about what it means. --Bry (talk) 13:02, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
  • done --Hef (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

Things that Get Member points

I moved this text into the main vote page --Hef (talk) 13:40, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

From the list

• The issue I see is that Hef's proposal seeks to eliminate the automatic awarding of points. I think this will adversely impact the organization, create more workload for the Board, and fail to meet the policy objectives that member points are supposed to encourage. (ryan)
• OK, I'll say it. Nobody likes exposing themselves to rejection. Having to justify one's awesomeness to the Board and ask them to consider awarding points feels... awkward. Like self-promoting and asking for a handout. People don't like to do it. (ryan)
  • In the current policy, we encourage member's to promote each other, and the BoD rejects very few proposals for points. I don't see any reason for this to change --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• A mechanical model of "Do X, get Y points" is a great way to get people to do X. It takes value judgements out of the mix. For things we want to encourage, like teaching classes, running events, and doing authorizations, it is a great model. (Ryan)
  • I agree. I think we both feel the current policy is vague. I think we differ on execution. --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
  • regarding value judgement: For the most part, the value judgements are only made when relevant, as in a new idea or activity. Once the decision is made it would be documented in the wiki. This also allows for flexibility in handling future needs of the space. --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

• It also makes life easier for the Board. The whole Board shouldn't need to think about it, and could probably delegate it so it doesn't take up time at the Board meetings. The Board will still need to evaluate cases that don't fit into the mechanical model, but won't be bothered with routine stuff. (Ryan)
  • As a Board member, and I know this is counter intuitive, but additional language adds complexity, which increases the time points take to process. --Hef (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
  • Regarding evaluating cases that don't fit into the mechanical model: I'd like those evaluations to change the mechanical model as they arise. --Hef (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
  • Currently, delegating points doesn't work do to crm restrictions. I'd like to change that with technology in the near future. --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• Hef's proposal seems like it would create more work for the Board, since there are no automatic approvals. (Ryan)
  • The accounting difference between automatic and non is very minimal. The current workflow works like this:
    • Person emails BoD
    • BoD has a quick vote to approve points and/or affirm that the activity gets a point
    • Member point award gets recorded in minutes
    • Member point recipient gets note recorded in CRM

The complexity comes in the bizarre frequency of discussion on whether or not we need to to vote, what the vote is for, and whether or not an activity qualifies as automatic, how the actions scale, If multiple people were involved, who gets the points, etc. --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

• Does it include bounties for authorization, which is what Elizabeth originally wanted to address? (Ryan)
  • yes --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
• Does it reduce the attendance number on classes? (Ryan)
  • Yes. --Hef (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2014 (CDT)
    • I don't see that. The supplemental wiki page lists 5, same as the existing policy. (Ryan)
      • Fair. Across the board, no attendance is not lowered. Attendance requirements are special cased where 5 people is impractical or untenable. --Hef (talk) 18:29, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

Complexity

Last, this part of the policy is complex for the Board to maintain. They have to decide what tools get bounties and determine the number of people authorized per point. This list has to change all the time as the space acquires new tools, and probably needs a lot of periodic reviewed. It could easily become a source of bickering. And when members claim points, the Board has a laundry list of tools and numbers to sort through. We feel it would be far simpler and far less stressful for the Board to adopt a simple policy of 3 hours authorizing = 1 point and be done with it.

Re: Complexity.

I disagree that it is too complex. My initial estimates are just estimates, and we would definitely be willing to hear out anyone who feels that the effort required for teaching a tool should yield a different amount. I feel a large part of our role is to support area hosts. --Hef (talk) 22:19, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

Why do member points take so much board time

I'm seriously confused by why this has taken so much Board time.

You can give someone a Member Point for any reason. Saying yes to requests should be trivial. The only time you need to examine the rules is if the Board wants to say no. And I didn't think that was common.

What am I missing here? (Ryan)

Why member points take so much board time

They shouldn't take as much time as they do. That's why I want to reduce the complexity in what points are. --Hef (talk) 21:50, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

Do points work

Do we have any evidence that people are actually motivated by member points? (Ron Bean)

Not Direct Evidence

No direct evidence, no. People do claim them, and a few people teach regular classes in order to claim them every month.

Not entirely unrelated, there are also several volunteer positions being opened up in order to address tool training issues. --Hef (talk) 21:52, 16 October 2014 (CDT)

Authorization Bounty

This is an area of importance to Elizabeth, who wants to ensure an adequate number of authorizers in the CNC Area to keep up with the high demand. The Board's recent call for a Volunteer Position for this area recognizes the need, but one additional person with a dues credit would still be inadequate to handle the workload without burnout. We need a lot of people stepping up here, and a way to make sure they *all* are acknowledged and rewarded.

Hef is misreading the intention of our proposal. "instead of saying all certs over 3 hours get points" is untrue. The intent (and apologies if it wasn't clear from the text) is that this is cumulative. Once a member accumulates 3 hours, they contact the Board and claim a point. Any extra authorization time rolls forward. Example:

• Week 1: Authorize 6 people on the laser, 2 hours.
• Week 2: Authorize 2 people on the ShopBot, 2 hours.
• [Send e-mail to info@ and receive 1 point, 1 hour rolls forward]
• Week 3: Authorize 7 more people on the laser, 2 hours.
• [Send e-mail to info@ and receive 1 point.]

We want to state again that the intent is *not* to devalue anyone. It is to value *everyone* who does authorizations by making sure that they have access to member points easily and clearly. We feel that basing this on the time the authorizer spends is the most fair method, recognizing that each machine has very different authorization needs, some work best for groups and others work best for one on one, etc. And we feel this is, by far, simpler for the Board to administer. While we aren't attached to the exact exchange rate, we figured something working out to $10 in benefits per hour is fair and has precedent considering the Board is asking for volunteer positions that pay $40 in benefits for 4 hours work per month.

Hef's proposal concerns us for a number of reasons:

A member who authorizes 3 people on the ShopBot, 4 people on the laser, and 1 person on the welder gets zero member points. The record keeping requirements for the members are far more cumbersome than simply tracking their hours, as they have to track the number of people authorized per tool and remember to submit when, for each tool, they have reached the specific target. It is fair to assume members will be honest in their recording of hours; doing otherwise would be considered un-excellent.

Award level

I think the award rate you are specifying is a little high. I would prefer that member points be an addon for being a good member, not compensation. --Hef (talk) 22:24, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

Different Responsiblities

In a previous post you suggested 4 hours of authorization time to earn a point and now you are suggesting 3. 4 was based on the number of hours expected by the requirement for regular office hours, ie two 2 hour sessions / week.

I believe the number of hours of spontaneous authorizations should be at least the same if not more than office hours. Part of the burden of office hours is the regular commitment to a scheduled time. And the office hours are the minimum time commitment. Office hours tend to be larger sessions for multiple people and those holding office hours extend them and run late when needed.

I propose spontaneous authorizations, which tend to be for smaller groups often just one on one and are scheduled at the authorizer's convenience, be 5 hours for a member point.

As Justin said these details can be hashed out later and should not be in the vote proposal. (Todd Allan)

Hours instead of People

There technically nothing that precludes hours being rewarded, and the BoD as a group has discretion over what to award points for. I have few issues with this style:

• It begins to sound a lot like we are talking about wages when you want to award something hourly.
• There are some areas that need more attention than others, I'm not a fan of a flat rate.
• Rewards for hourly work are more likely to become expected, I am trying to encourage people, not compensate them. I still expect PS:One to be a community of members.

--Hef (talk) 22:25, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

Mix and Match

The idea of mixing and matching volunteer time sounds interesting, but I am resistant.

• It add complexity back in.
• I don't think this has been a major problem
• I would be willing to look at this case by case. For certain related activities it might make sense.

--Hef (talk) 22:27, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

Requested changes for Teaching Section

1. Under Supplementary wiki, change the Teaching section to remove all the "Authorizing X..." and "Running a Welding X..." and replace it with:

"Performing 3 hours of tool authorizations."

• I still take issue with switching to a time based model. --Hef (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2014 (CDT)
  • I feel it increases expectation of member points --Hef (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2014 (CDT)
  • I do not feel that all authorization are of similar complexity or desirability. --Hef (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

The tool list is fairly arbitrary and incomplete.

The tool list is fairly arbitrary and incomplete. 3D printers are missing. Yes, the Board can add them, but then what about the Clausing lathe? Why is the wood shop entirely excluded? Does that de-value the people who authorize there? How can these numbers be considered fair when Elizabeth (used for comparison, she is clearly ineligible) has authorized 5 people on the laser in a little over 1 hour while Ryan generally takes 10 hours to authorize 5 people for the hands-on portion of the SEM?

Re: The list.

You're not wrong, the tool list I added as sample text is arbitrary and incomplete.

• I am using it as a representative sample.
• I have not been able to talk to the respective area hosts about what they feel should be changed.

Several of the areas I have chosen are areas where I feel the existing policy is insufficient, namely cold metals, welding, and CNC.

The wood shop is not "excluded", just left off. However, I am currently unaware of substantial issues with current wood shop certs, and there are motions to get an additional volunteer position opened up to increase woodshop certification bandwidth. --Hef (talk) 22:19, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

shopbot

The five number is pretty high. The Shopbot and Tier one you can't do more than 4 people, given the amount of time is required to do an authorization. (Anna)

welding

Same for welding, class size max is really 2 people as thats the number of machines we have to certify on. (TJ)

Safety

By focusing solely on number of people authorized, it could encourage (or be perceived as encouraging) authorizers to cut corners, which could impact quality of instruction and safety.

• A frightening prospect indeed. The opposite could also be said, sessions that are too long may be perceived as too intimidating, or cause people to stop paying attention. (This point is moot)
• I'm hoping no one is trading safety for a relatively small discount on membership dues --Hef (talk) 21:57, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

Classes

classes that don't get enough participants

We want to reward the effort of people who are stepping up and teaching classes. Classes posted on the calendar, MeetUp, Wiki, etc. draw new people into the space, as well as give existing members more reason to show up. It is possible for a teacher to put in the effort to prepare a class, advertise it, and still have less than 5 people show up. Ryan recalls Derek bringing a large amount of heavy and expensive professional lighting equipment into the space, setting it up, and doing a seriously awesome class that only two people attended. Under our proposal, he and anyone else in a similar situation would still get an automatic member point for the class, provided at least one person shows up, and it was advertised in advance. While Ryan did submit a member point request for Derek that was granted, he shouldn't have needed to do so. We need to reward our members for adding to the diversity of classes available at PS:One and being excellent by teaching. (Ryan/Elizabth)

Exceptions to the rule

Defining effort taken to attempt to teach a class that does not have 5 attendees is not something I want to codify. Classes with sufficient effort, advertising, and prep usual do net 5 attendees, and as you pointed out exceptions can be made. --Hef (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

What qualifies as a "class"?

Here's something I'm not clear on. What qualifies as a "class"?

Is it someone walking through a PowerPoint and providing handouts? Or does it imply (or require?) that people actually do something hands-on with physical stuff or code or bits on a board or...?

The latter can require a lot more time on-site for the same number of people, and thus may have a much lower participation cap, especially if there is a particular machine required for part of the class. (Example: I would love a woodworking class; it's been a long time since I've used a table saw. But an "everyone make a wooden whatever" class becomes a waiting game if everyone in class needs to use the table saw, even if there are only 5 people in the class.)

thx, Ananda

Traditionally speaking...

A class has traditionally been loosely defined, and are not generally hands on. That said, what you describe sounds awesome, I am open to rewarding preperation. --Hef (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

Another thought

Under the policy as written, the Board gets to decide how to award points, so we don't exactly need to codify this. I'd disagree that hands-on is part of the definition; classes can be both. Generally I'd say that a class:

• Is taught by an instructor knowledgeable in the subject.
• People are coming to get instruction, knowledge, assistance, and/or tutoring from the instructor.
• The spotlight is largely on the instructor.
• There's a good chance the instructor will have needed to prepare for the class at some time in the past outside of advertising it.

An event is something else on the calendar that isn't a class. Movie night, game night, etc. Again, just my $0.02, and this doesn't have to be part of the policy, and it probably shouldn't.

If the person hosting "Everyone make a wooden whatever" is, say, providing plans for people, may have acquired materials, and is coaching them through making the wooden whatever, it's a class. If the person organizing it is just responsible for advertising it and unlocking the door, and the individuals are making their whatevers without help from the organizer, then it's an event. --Rdpierce (talk) 23:46, 30 November 2014 (CST)

Change request for classes

2. In that same section, for classes change "5 or more people" to a lower number. We originally suggested 1, but if 2 or 3 is needed to reach a compromise, we can support that. (Elizabeth and Ryan)

• I prefer to deal with this case by case. For classes without material preparation or that can be done completely concurrently (math, programming, writing, etc) I prefer to keep the default at 5 for most classes and first time classes, and lower the requirement case by case. --Hef (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

Donations

While in general we are in favor of an automatic relationship between actions and member points, this is one area that we feel should be an exception.

In addition to what we have stated previously, donors may be less likely to donate if they know that their donation may benefit an individual. A $10,000 grant would result in a $1500 dues reduction; in other words, 15% of the grant effectively goes to pay off a member.

This, in Ryan's opinion, could jeopardize any 501(c)(3) filing PS:One would make. "No part of the net earnings of a section 501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual." ( http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Inurement-Private-Benefit-Charitable-Organizations ) Non-profits can certainly provide fair compensation, so I don't believe member points as a whole are problematic. The key distinction for private inurement is the direct connection between income (the donation) and benefit (the points.) (Ryan)

Removing Donations Verbage

Seems reasonable. I'll nix it until we can get clarification. It was in there because it was in the old policy. --Hef (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2014 (CDT)

Area Host Eligibility

Elizabeth is abstaining from this point. Hef's policy makes Area Hosts ineligible for member points. This has never been PS:One policy. The policy defining Area Hosts states: "Persons serving in Area Host positions or Volunteer Positions are not eligible to earn Membership Rewards Points for performing activities that fall under the expected responsibilities of their respective Area Host positions or Volunteer Positions." This is clear, and, in my opinion, sufficient. If, say, Anna does authorizations on the Clausing lathe, that clearly falls outside her responsibilities as Electronics Area Host. Shouldn't she be eligible to receive points and then transfer them to anyone she chooses? (Ryan)

Rationale

Defining what is in and outside an area hosts duties is complicated, and often subject to discussion/debate. Since Area hosts already have full membership for free, I suspect that few area hosts would be interested in acquiring member points, as the provide little to know benefit. The only other benefit in having member points is being able to transfer them to other members. Since area hosts are listened too when they request member points for members, This benefit also seems moot,

• Overall the lack of benefit to area hosts, and the vagueness of an area hosts realm of responsibility, I'm opting to nix the discussion altogether. That said, If an Area Hosts comes up with a good reason to change this, I'm listening. I mostly just don't see the point.
• . (Ryan) Under the policy language, change the Eligibility section to remove the statement "Area hosts are not eligible for member points." There is already language in the Area Hosts and Volunteer Positions policy that will suffice.

Reconsidering my stance

• several people have expressed that they feel area hosts should be able to get points for doing stuff outside there area. I, need to reconsider my stance on this. --Hef (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2014 (CDT)

What's the Cost?

How much do we / should we spend on member points?

• We allowed for $7200 or 240 member points in our 2014 budget. Any idea of how many points have already been awarded this year?
• Could the board award more points than allowed for in the budget? Mskilton

So far this year, according to the board meeting minutes, we've issued 133 member points. --Dbever (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2014 (CDT)