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From Pumping Station One
→Clarification requests
:If I’m reading the budget correctly, the reason for the shift in resources from Member votes to Area Hosts is not to enable the Area Hosts to buy more equipment, it’s to enable them to maintain and operate the equipment we already have. As we accumulate more equipment, our ongoing costs to own and operate that equipment goes up as well, consuming a larger portion of our budget. Cumulatively, we only have $3,813.00 allocated for new tools (of which, if you dig into the budget, almost 1/3rd is simply payments on our laser cutter loan), but fully $16,384 for consumable supplies (end mills, 3d printer filament, argon gas, electronics components, etc.) and another $6,082 is simply repairs and maintenance. Assuming people have confidence in the Area Hosts’ ability to correctly forecast the needs of their areas, it seems to me that this budget is appropriate to maintain, not to substantially expand, those areas. If we want more money for member votes and new toys, it sounds like we may want to look at a hike in dues. [[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:23, 12 January 2015 (CST)
:If I’m reading the budget correctly, the reason for the shift in resources from Member votes to Area Hosts is not to enable the Area Hosts to buy more equipment, it’s to enable them to maintain and operate the equipment we already have. As we accumulate more equipment, our ongoing costs to own and operate that equipment goes up as well, consuming a larger portion of our budget. Cumulatively, we only have $3,813.00 allocated for new tools (of which, if you dig into the budget, almost 1/3rd is simply payments on our laser cutter loan), but fully $16,384 for consumable supplies (end mills, 3d printer filament, argon gas, electronics components, etc.) and another $6,082 is simply repairs and maintenance. Assuming people have confidence in the Area Hosts’ ability to correctly forecast the needs of their areas, it seems to me that this budget is appropriate to maintain, not to substantially expand, those areas. If we want more money for member votes and new toys, it sounds like we may want to look at a hike in dues. [[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:23, 12 January 2015 (CST)
:: You are not reading the proposed budget correctly. The proposed budget allocates a substantial portion of funds to area hosts to purchase equipment. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:40, 13 January 2015 (CST)
::: You are correct. I missed the "Equipment" category (I was looking at "Tools"), as I scanned through too quickly. My new suggestion is that line items exceeding $750 require a future vote to specifically authorize, and be used merely for planning purposes. I think this is actually largely in accord with the budget as written, and would require only a slight clarifying tweak to the language (see my post to the mailing list for full discussion). [[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:35, 13 January 2015 (CST)
:::: I'd like to see the limit set to $500, but that does sound pretty good to me --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 11:06, 13 January 2015 (CST)
::::Why convolute the budget with non binding fluff. Couldn't the same be accomplished with a wiki page? Something like... "Equipment Vote Goals for 2015" People could discuss and start volunteering to write up votes and do research and so on. I just don't like fluff in a budget. Makes it too easy to miss things because TL;DR. --[[User:Lucas|lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]) 11:50, 13 January 2015 (CST)
== SEM and other projects ==
== SEM and other projects ==
::: We went with a $750 limit this year, which is what we told to the area hosts when they were making their budgets. If this hasn't already been added back into the language, it will be in just a minute. [[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 18:51, 6 January 2015 (CST)
::: We went with a $750 limit this year, which is what we told to the area hosts when they were making their budgets. If this hasn't already been added back into the language, it will be in just a minute. [[User:Justin|Justin]] ([[User talk:Justin|talk]]) 18:51, 6 January 2015 (CST)
"Area hosts are authorized to spend up to $750 for any single capital expenditure. Any line item in the budget that goes above this limit is not authorized for purchase and will require a separate member vote.
Area hosts may spend any amount to replace or repair existing tooling or machinery. Replacements must be the exact same item. Any upgrade or different tooling or machinery that serves the same purpose would require a member vote to authorize spending."
:I am still not real comfortable with this wording... I understand the other side of this argument. (That a vote could keep the equipment down for too long.) I am wondering what people would think of adding something like this:
:"Any spending that falls in the above two situations that the host post on the mailing list what they are going to do before spending over $300 at least 12 hours before the purchase."
:This is just so the membership can speak up if there may be a desire to upgrade a piece instead of direct replacement when it brakes- Just to cite one situation that might come up. --[[User:Lucas|lucas]] ([[User talk:Lucas|talk]]) 19:47, 15 January 2015 (CST)
== Hassle of a vote ==
== Hassle of a vote ==
** Is there a 20% buffer --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Is there a 20% buffer --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* I see authorization for 2 large welding equipment items.
* I see authorization for 2 large welding equipment items.
** I don't see this. I see an anvil, casting equipment, and air extraction as equipment in Hot Metals. Where do you see welding equipment? --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:41, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What make and model being purchased? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What make and model being purchased? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** May I see the manual? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** May I see the manual? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What filters are required to keep the air safe to breath in the paint booth? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What filters are required to keep the air safe to breath in the paint booth? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* Arts area - what is $2,500 on equipment being spent on? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* Arts area - what is $2,500 on equipment being spent on? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** I don't see this. I only see $450 in equipment for the printer. --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:46, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Does Arts area need a new printer? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Does Arts area need a new printer? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What event type of equipment is being considered --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What event type of equipment is being considered --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Is the furniture of sufficient quality? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Is the furniture of sufficient quality? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** who is the furniture vendor? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** who is the furniture vendor? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Furniture is "6 - 8 new adjustable office chairs for seating." I assume this is likely to replace some existing seating, so I don't imagine floor space is an issue here. --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:49, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* CNC Area
* CNC Area
** I'd like to see a breakdown of the $2,720 in supplies for this area --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** I'd like to see a breakdown of the $2,720 in supplies for this area --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What is $2,500 in equipment going to be spen ont --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
*** From the area budget: <ul><li>Acrylic Sheets Acrylic for Laser Cutter Authorizations $200<li>Shopbot Endmills Various Sizes of Endmills for Shopbot $ 600.00<li>ShapeOko Endmills Various smaller endmills/engraving tools for ShapeOko2 $ 200.00<li>Shopbot Wasteboards Replacement wasteboards $ 100.00<li>Plastic Nails Plastic Nails for Nailgun $ 100.00<li>Wood for Milling Materials for ShapeOko and Shopbot Authorizations $ 200.00<li>Vinyl For Vinyl Cutter $ 250.00<li>Vinyl Transfer Tape For Finishing Vinyl Stickers $ 60.00<li>3D Printer Filament 3mm Lulzbot Filament $ 200.00<li>3D Printer Filament 1.75 mm Makerbot Filament $ 200.00<li>3D Printer Filament CubePro Cartridges/ 1.75 mm filament $ 300.00<li>Tape for 3D Printer Beds Kapton, PET, Etc. $ 80.00<li>Acetone For dissolving ABS $ 50.00<li>Inkjet Cartridges Medium Format Inkjet Cartridges $ 250.00<li>Inkjet Paper Medium Format Inkjet Paper Rolls $ 60.00<li>Egg-Bot Electro-Kistka CNC Pysanky supplies $ 80.00</ul> --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:52, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What is $2,500 in equipment going to be spen on? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** $2,400 for the laser cutter loan, $100 for a shopvac for small CNC routers. --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:53, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Can we arrange for sufficient training on new machines? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Can we arrange for sufficient training on new machines? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What software is required to drive the new machines? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What software is required to drive the new machines? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What furniture for the CNC area is going to be considred? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* What furniture for the CNC area is going to be considred? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Where is new furniture going to go? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Where is new furniture going to go? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* The woodhsop has 1k for a new bandsaw? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* The woodhsop has 1k for a new bandsaw?
** How was this amount arrived at? is a specific item being considered? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** How was this amount arrived at? is a specific item being considered? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Where is it going to go? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Where is it going to go? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Has anyone had a chance to comparison shop? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Has anyone had a chance to comparison shop? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* Why does the Kitchen area has an advertising budget? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* Why does the Kitchen area has an advertising budget? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** Meetup fees. --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:56, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* IS garage paint appropriate for a kitchen floor? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* IS garage paint appropriate for a kitchen floor? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
* The kitchen has a $1,046 budget for equipment?
* The kitchen has a $1,046 budget for equipment?
** What equipment is the kitchen going to buy? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What equipment is the kitchen going to buy? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
*** From the Area budget:<ul><li>Hoover Vacuum To clean kitchen messes $140.00<li>Lab Coats Used to protect your street clothes from food & vice versa $ 220.00<li>Sanitizer dispenser to keep your hands clean when touching things $ 25.00<li>Other Equipment Purchases $661.00 (This could probably use more clarity, at least examples of the types of things anticipated.) </ul> --[[User:KoalaBro2|Kyle]] ([[User talk:KoalaBro2|talk]]) 10:58, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What is the make and model of said equipment? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** What is the make and model of said equipment? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** May I see the manual? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
** May I see the manual? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:25, 13 January 2015 (CST)
=== Equipment Purchase questions ===
=== Equipment Purchase questions ===
There are a lot of questions above, but these are standard questions that eqipment authorizations need to be able to be defended against. For the most part, there is no exact equipment being listed on any of the equipment purchases, No links or locations of intended purchase. There is no consideration for floor space being taken into account. There are no assurances that arrangements for training of members are being taken into account. There are no assurances that people executing purchases have performed sufficient research, or are familiar with the items they are tasked with purchasing. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:29, 13 January 2015 (CST)
There are a lot of questions above, but these are standard questions that eqipment authorizations need to be able to be defended against. For the most part, there is no exact equipment being listed on any of the equipment purchases, No links or locations of intended purchase. There is no consideration for floor space being taken into account. There are no assurances that arrangements for training of members are being taken into account. There are no assurances that people executing purchases have performed sufficient research, or are familiar with the items they are tasked with purchasing. --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 00:29, 13 January 2015 (CST)
== Feedback on Mailing List ==
"Equipment in general budget moved to votes
There are quite a few line items in the area's budgets that look to me like they are equipment. I would like to see these be moved to member votes. Especially new equipment.
List:
:* CTO Server and Switch upgrades - $1600
:** New equipment, especially at this amount, should be a separate vote
:* Hot metals casting equipment - $1000
:** New equipment, especially at this amount, should be a separate vote
:* Hot metals air extraction - $1000
:** A single line purchase at this amount should be a separate vote
:* Woodshop 18" bandsaw - $1000
:** Is this replacing current equipment? Even so, this seems like too much not be its own separate vote.
:* Woodshop jointer - $700
:** Even if this is replacing current equipment, this seems like too much to just be a non-descriptive line item in the general budget.
:* Woodshop planer - $700
:** Even if this is replacing current equipment, this seems like too much to just be a non-descriptive line item in the general budget.
:* Woodshop Mortiser - $500
:** Is this new equipment? Why isn't this a separate vote?
There are probably also others. New equipment and/or expensive equipment really should be standalone member votes.
Plaintext language
The numbers that we are voting on should be in plaintext in the wiki. The pdfs are hard to manage and they are hard to change by anyone who doesn't have the source. Could we move the pdf to the background language? And put what we are voting on directly in the wiki?
Move laser loan out of CNC
So, for the CNC area's sake, couldn't we put the laser cutter loan in general and administrative? Putting it in the CNC budget makes the CNC budget look larger than it actually is, especially if we were to just look at summary numbers.
CNC total with laser cutter loan: $6900
CNC total without laser cutter loan: $4500
Move vote back a week
The time after elections is generally used to swear in the new board and do a hand off meeting. That time is going to be essentially gone if we have to do this vote in the same meeting.
I also think that the vote won't get enough discussion time if not moved back.
Certain language moved out of vote
The itemized expense report language (underneath "Area hosts will be issued a expense card with...") should be moved out of this vote. If the BOD ever needed to change the way this was approached, to fit actual needs, they would have to write a vote to amend. This would take away a lot of the freedom to figure out what works. I'd also like to see more current board input on this one, as we have the experience with this and especially since the BOD would be the ones charged with implementing.
The entire reporting bullet point should also be moved out of this vote. Violating vote language is really bad. If, for some reason, the treasurer takes 5 weeks to release the monthly report, they are now violating the vote. I get the intent here, but putting the language here is not safe. As well, I'd like to see more current board input on this part, as we have the experience actually managing this."-Bry
"Though I'm still new 'round here, I fully sympathize with the desire of the members to have input on purchases of new equipment. I would suggest the following clarifying language for the budget. Where it says "Area hosts are authorized to spend up to $750 for a single capital expenditure," I would add: "Capital expenditures listed in the budget exceeding $750 are advisory, and must be confirmed by a separate vote of the membership." I would strike the line "Area hosts may spend over $750 on a single item to replace or repair existing tooling or machinery" entirely, as it is totally uncapped, and could lead to controversy of what constitutes a "replacement," and whether a replacement that is also an upgrade still counts, etc.
That way we retain the clarity of what the Area Hosts expect to spend over the year (after all, most votes pass. If Triano expects to propose a vote for a $1,000 bandsaw, that vote is likely to pass and we would be well-advised to account for it in our budget). At the same time, we're still giving the membership a say in those large expenditures, by requiring the confirmation vote when Triano's got a specific bandsaw model located.
Other thoughts:
I think the laser loan is appropriate in CNC. The loan, after all, represents the cost of us owning a laser, which is quite properly a CNC item. If the CNC budget looks high, it simply reflects the reality that CNC equipment is expensive.
I agree that it probably makes sense to strike the administrative details about expense cards. It would be entirely appropriate for the Board to publish a document to the Wiki stating that this is the procedure, without locking it in via a vote.
I don't agree on striking the bit about the Treasurer's reports. Nothing in the language forbids the Treasurer from taking 5 weeks to complete a monthly report, it just states that a monthly report must eventually be completed. If the January report isn't published until June even, that doesn't appear to violate the language as written."-Kyle
"I totally agree with these points of Bry's. Actually I feel pretty strongly about them with my non-full member opinion. As for the laser... I agree it is part of CNC expense and that is no big deal in my mind because CNC is used so much more-- tho other equipment purchases are not reflected in the other area's budgets nor do I think they should.
I don't know that I even like the idea of equipment replacement without a vote. Who says the members what to replace a piece-- maybe they want to move on to something else."-Lucas
== Uncomfortable with Consumables ==
"I'm not entirely comfortable with paying for consumables-- it seems to
me that they should come out of the donation boxes in each area. But I'd
like to hear what other people think about this (I'm not a voting member
in any case)."-Ron B.
=== My take ===
I think it's worth keeping a close eye on consumables. In a few areas that I am aware of that have consumables that the space helps fund -- Electronics, Cold Metals, Hot Metals, I think it's been working out rather well. A while back we began suggesting to area hosts that it would be ok to keep some supplies available if it made sense to the area host. We wanted to see if it would work out well on a small scale.
* '''Electronics''' -- The area keeps a supply of available components. I think this has helped further the goals of the organization in project completion, and the ability to mass purchase at discounted prices
* '''Cold Metals''' -- The area has a supply of small stock. I think it's been useful for the membership to have small stock available, since similar stock is small quantities is prohibitively expensive to acquire and the space has better bargaining power than most individual members would. (Thanks go out to Dean for that)
* '''Hot Metals''' -- We used to require people to supply there own propane. This was highly problematic. A communal supply makes sense to me here. Additionally, communal supply of welding materials also makes sense to me
* '''Kitchen''' -- I'm not a fan of this one. Supplying snack foods doesn't seem to be in line with the organizations goals. Certain cooking components could make sense: oils, spices, seasonings, etc.
* '''Arts''' -- I don't think Arts/Crafts purchases supplies, as most people are able to purchase there entire project's material without making mistakes, and there is often a lot of donated material around. I could be convinced that some shared supplies here would also make sense
* '''General/G&A''' -- supplies may be misleading, but toilet paper, paper towels, cups, pencilsm paper, that sort of thing make sense to me.
* '''Tool Cage''' -- Not sure what would be a "supply" here, other than nails/screws. Actually, a supply of nails/screws does make sense.
* '''Woodshop''' -- Supplying raw wood would be difficult to manage. I wouldn't be opposed to a trial run.
* '''CNC''' -- We supply filament and vinyl. I suspect that if we didn't, we would have the same propane problem -- where do we put all of these partially used collections of material that we can't use? For large projects, people still bring in there own supply.
Something to consider, it is worth watching the source of raw materials, we should keep paying attention to who receives monetary benefit from the space.
In All the areas, I think that the onus of supplying all/any of the raw material for projects should be on the member and not the space, (exception: Hot Metals welding supply). It has just been really helpful for members' to have the extra parts that they didn't know they needed.
--[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 15:15, 17 January 2015 (CST)
== Clarification requests ==
* [[2015_Budget_Vote/Minimal_Operating_Expenses_Plan]] What situations cause this to come into play? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 17:33, 18 January 2015 (CST)
* Can an area host spend more than the amount listed on a line item on that line item if it comes from a different part of his or her budget? --[[User:Hef|Hef]] ([[User talk:Hef|talk]]) 17:33, 18 January 2015 (CST)
